Curse

Red Locust · Aug 02, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Ok I'm not gonna bother with arguing over this build anymore, because it's obvious that you can't be reasoned with, and any attempt at pointing out how your build slips up results in your imaginative rebuttals of "oh shut up, I've won many arena games, hence this build is one of the top 3 builds in the world."

I'll just end it with a little summary of all the things that kill this build.

- Hex removal. Let's see, after phantom pain is gone, fragility is sitting there, uncovered, just begging to be removed. (to which your response was, "in the REAL world, people only remove one hex, hell, a lot of times they dont even have hex removal"....)
edit: oh and I don't need to mention how badly NR blows this build out of the water.

- Not enough energy. Ok your whole bf-fr-pp-sd-vir takes around 11 seconds to cast. It costs you a total of 50 energy, which is probably more than you have. Over the course of those 11 seconds, you regen around 15 energy. Now, god forbid the enemy remove fragility or deep wound after your combo (which they apparently never do in your case) or you'd have to recast the whole fr-pp-sd-vir combo all over again, and you'd have to wait a long time to get the energy to cast it. Oh, and energy draining mesmers? Forget about it, they don't exist where you're playing, even though a simple power leak or energy drain will make you sit on your ass for another 11+ seconds.

- Monks. Seems you're playing vs. teams with no monks or some terrible, terrible monks. All it takes is a simple healing seed or shielding hands, and your damage goes to hell. Also, a lot of damage comes from the first virulence, and 3 seconds later from the end of it. 3 seconds to react? Not much of a spike, is it? Oh and don't count deep wound like it's some crazy 100 damage effect. It's only good for damage spikes, not much else. Once it's removed, the effects are negated.

- Hell, if we're playing the "my build can kill your build" game, let's take a stab at it, shall we? Let's say I slot in Wild Blow in that last spot of mine (might as well, since everyone in arena loves to be a survivor with crazy evasion stances). All I need is to charge up adrenaline on some warrior, and go at you. Wild Blow and 5 seconds is all I need to make sure you're kissing dirt by the time I'm through with you. I could even afford to go frenzy on you, since you wouldn't make it past your phantom pain cast. And yes, I have played such a warrior (as I have your frag build), and I know what it can and cannot do.

But yeah, feel free to post as many builds as you like, then laugh in the face of anyone who points out the shortcomings by saying "oh that rarely happens in the real world," or "oh they would never pull that off in the real world."

arredondo · Aug 02, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

A response from the real world:

- Hex removal. Already dealt with above. The issue isn't hex removal on Fragility, it is the time they have to remove it. Unless you're convincing me that it is highly likely that an an Arena opponent, covered with Back Fire (he didn't remove that?) can and will instead remove Fragility BEFORE PP comes down 1.4 seconds later, you have no argument. I can say that in absolute terms that it so rarely happens, it doesn't.

If one does, I'll tip my hat to them because even the Monk's Remove Hex takes TWO SECONDS to cast. He'd have to start it before I even begin PP, and if he hits PP instead, his butt is mine without some good healing. BF may be removed, but my entire combo will then unleash furious anger on him when he tries to let his hex removal recharge - I have time for Fragility-->PP--->degen (who will remove PP, me or him?)---> Shatter Delusions---> Virulence.

As for PP being removed so they can take away Virulence, the real world reports back that it doesn't happen (or I never noticed it, making it VERY rare). Think before you toss out your forum theories.... if PP is gone (either after 10 seconds, my Shatter Delusion or their hex removal), a Deep Wound is created instantly. Virulence takes .7 seconds for me to cast. How in the world can they either remove Deep Wound OR Fragility in that short period of time? THINK before you post! Better yet, try playing this in the real world and see for yourself. I'm practically holding you by the hand showing you how the game actually works with these skills.

This is all been played out so many times it's not funny, of course I'm referring to the real world. So in what other way does your forum theory work? I mean besides on the forum?

- Energy issues. The original post shows that the 50E w/Back Fire i accounted for. It also show I start with 55E 4 regen and 69E 3 regen. I keep 55E on until I need another 15E.... you have heard of focus switching I'm sure. Works like a charm here, and the amount of control I have over the opponent with BF and PP in 98% of the non Hex Breaker cases is incredible.

The whole cast takes 11 seconds on a caster (6-7 on a Warrior or Ranger), but in that time they are scared to cast! It's not even a back and forth fight. For ten seconds (if BF wasn't removed) they either eat major damage if they cast, or they wait while I perform the full combo and die (or run, or wait for healing).

Once the target is controlled I move on to targets that are in the mix with my team. 4-3 makes all the difference. I usually kill before anyone on the field (I go after danger targets first, usually Mesmers or Eles), but of course a number of times I don't get the 10 second kill. I react to what happend.

Energy denial on me? It's rare, it assumes I was targeted for denial before any of my teammates, and it affects ANY build, so you have no point. Interrupters? I conceded that in my very first post on this build, but PP is definitely the place they should target if they have only one interrupt with no anti-hex protection. Mega health support... all depends on the make up of their team. I'll address that below.

Bottom line, EVERY build has to react to the plan not being perfect, and this one is no different but I can continue causing painful disruptions with 15E-20E as I regen. Again, those options are laid out in my original post.

- Monk support. The goal of a team is to kill the other team, right? So someone is doing damage on your team I assume.... do they just toss in the towel when the enemy gets healed? Of course not, which is why the whole premise is dumb as can be. Monk healing is the main thing to slow down this and any damaging build, so you haven't said anything of value. However, let's take a trip to the real world once again to see how I've dealt with this.

At the start of a match, whether I have a team or it's random, I tell my mates "kill the monk, and leave the other three for me". That is an exaggerration of course, but the basic plan is simple and sound (none is perfect): if three teammates are wailing on a monk, his attention is slightly disturbed, no? I have enough time to do my business without interference from major healing (minor healing won't help). Oftentimes, I allow an enemy to chase me just so I can get him away from his monk.

Whether my team can kill their monk or not in the 10 seconds that I need is up to their skills, but if the opposing team's only monk is under siege while I am gutting a perceived danger target, that's two important enemies that are dying or dead in a short time. The other two enemies are variables that we deal with in the meantime - just like any other team.

However, that's where my defenses are so fantastic in the battles. If the wild cards are Rangers or Warriors (i.e. a Hammer Warrior wailing on me, lol) then I just Distort and continue casting without a care in the world. If it's a Necro or non energy denial/interrupt Mesmer, Hex Breaker carries me fine for those 10-16 seconds that I need (I allow PP -3 degen when applied before my first spike).

Any other combo of enemies are just played on the fly. If I need to target another "danger target" I switich. During the time Fragility is recharge, I chip away at the health, control their casting, then go at it again. All I need is 35E once I;'m ready to pulverize a known defenseless priority target.

Dual Monk battles are the slowest for any match, not just for my build. I'll help a team kill one monk (BF cast on the other in hopes he doesn't remove it), so that is often enough to make the job quicker. If one Monk is extra sturdy (invinci monk), we switch to the other. If we meet two top tier Monks AND they have enough team firepower to kill us, kudos to them. You can't win them all, no one can, but it is not so common of a problem for this build alone that I need to make drastic changes. It does its job and does it well.

- Warrior tries again. Trust me on this, Wild Blow isn't your answer by itself. You lose all your Adrenaline trying to shut down my Distortion and are at square one since I get Distortion back in five seconds, and I ALWAYS kite until I'm ready to cast. Distortion and running go together, so your chains have to work extra hard just to touch me. When I get knocked down, I can Distort on the ground and get up casting. I kill faster than you can, so once you're hexed, it's over.

You will die first unless you pack some awesome support skills with your secondary. Of course, if we were 1v1, I'd come in with counters to your perceived secondary skills. And if we are doing more forum theories, then I go back to switching in Sympathetic Visage (AoE loss of all Adrenaline and -5E if you touch me) or Illusion of Weakness (where I kill you as I sit on 735+ health).

Now, what just happend right now in all this forum theory? You are basically admitting you need to change your build in hopes of even fighting my build. I did the exact same thing when I took out IoW - I never cared about hexes on me when I kept Illusion of Weakness as a standard. I'd shrug off the damage, deal with the BF and Diversion as it came, and out ran the multi-hexes. There weren't many hex combos to worry about... NOW there is.

Facing this build myself, I know how fast it kills because until I brought Hex Breaker, it killed me in no time flat. Even when I knew it was coming, my running only allowed PP to degen, making Virulence more deadly. After monks in most cases, my #1 priority is going after the MeNe on the battlefield. Air eles are crazy, but I've been Conditioned spiked too much to not face reality that variations of the build I posted is WAY to strong to just shrug off. If I don't go after that MeNe, he will likely kill my teammates pure and simple (I am well defended in all my builds now SPECIFICALLY for it, Hex Breaker or interrupts, etc.).

As I now practice other builds with my MeNe, every three to four games or so I am asked by strangers who see my class combo (teammates) - "are you using Fragility+Virulence?" People have obviously caught on to what YOU want to brush aside. You either love one of these on your arena team, or you pack defenses in case you meet one. Good luck to the rest. Very few builds can claim that amount of worth on the battlefield. Even with its weaknesses (that I pointed out in my very first post describing it), it is a dangerous character to face.

Arathorn5000 · Aug 03, 2005, 11:47 AM // 11:47

I think you're wrong about deep wound...whenever I inflict deep wound, I don't see the enemy's health lower at all....which leads me to believe that it simply lowers max HP and real HP by 20%, keeping the ratio the same. In which case, your 'ingenious' grenth's balance combo wouldn't get such great results. I'm also wondering how you came up with it doing 80%+ damage. I don't know much about the skills, but from reading their description, it would seem that you're taking yourself and the target to about 317 HP (assuming 500 HP base). Then the Phantom Pain/Shatter Delusion combo, I don't understand how you get 80%? (very cool combo nevertheless)

arredondo · Aug 03, 2005, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Good questions. Firstly, you can check for yourself.... a number of MeNes are doing variations of the Frag+Virul combo in Arenas. You may be sacrificed for doing the test but whenever the Phantom Pain hex gets placed on you, note your health numbers before Deep Wound, and then immediately after. It'll be 20% of your max, and is completely uninfluenced by your current health.

Let's say that you start with 500 units of 500 max (500/500). If you get hit with a Deep Wound, you have 400/400 health. Well let's say that you've been fighting awhile (no Deep Wound on you) and you are down to 250/500 health. If you get afflicted with a DW, you will taken down to 150/400. If you only had 85/500 health when DW hit you, you will die instantly because you'd have -15/400 health.

You won't see this by watching their max health bar. It stays the same length whether it is cut in half by Aura of the Lich, gets decreased by 20% with Deep Wound, or gets almost doubled with Demonic Flesh. The health bar is the same length, but each unit of damage now takes a greater chunk when they get hurt under DW. A -50 point attack may take 5 cm off the bar in normal conditions, but if they have a DW that same will take off 10 cm even though it is still -50 in damage.

I don't deal with forum theories when I post up my strats. Too many people around here do that already when they talk about what skills ownz or suckz. I test my stuff extensively to know what works and how. If I make a mistake, I'll correct it, but I at least put the time in to try to figure out as much as I can before making definitive statements.

On my GB combo you asked about (heh, I call it Grenth's Fury in my notes), I am taken about 75% from my health bar with L16 stats in Illusion. Illusion of Weakness or Blood Renewal do not drop my max health. IoW always takes the same amount regardless of my max health (depends on level of the attribute). In this case, it will always take 253 (about half of a 500 point health bar) and will always kill me if I have 252 or less when I cast it.

Blood Renewal always takes 33% of my max health. If my max health is 500, it will always take 165 no matter how much I've been hurt before the cast, and kill me if I have 164 or less. If I use a lot of runes to before a game, my max health might only be 400 going in. In that case, Illusion of Weakness STILL takes 253 health from me, but Blood Renewal will take 33% of 400, which will always be 132 regardless of how much actual health I have.

So, with 500 max health, it doesn't matter how much health left I have - if I cast BR and IoW (always BR first or IoW will trigger too early), I will lose 165+253 damage, or 418 damage. I have 82/500, and can then cast Grenth's Balance on the healthiest opponent I can find. Remember though, you now have +3 health regen from BR (which also gives you up to 160 health at L16 when it ends, but you can have 0 in the stat) AND you have Illusion of Weakness, which has stored that 253 in the bank for you when you get hit by anything except a degen. You will get that 253 back instantly, but don't get hit before Grenth's Balance is cast. As you can see, my health is in very good shape after I'm done with the combo.

So, before I cast BR and IoW, I often let them hit me a bit to be dangerous while maximizing damage, so let's say I'm hurt by a -32 attack before I cast the two sacrifices. I am now at 50/500. the opponent is a happy Warrior moving in for the kill - he is at 500/500. Then I cast Grenth's Balance which comes out almost instantly. Our health amounts were 50 for me and 500 for him - a 450 difference. GB will take that 450, divide it in half, and give me 225 while taking 225 from him.

I now have 275 health, my health regen is at +3 because of Blood Renewal (which also gives a bonus health boost at the end), and I have 253 health infinitely in storage. He is now at 275 health too, with no regen and no health storage. I Distort (to cause his attacks to whiff) and cast Conjure Phantom and Phantom Pain.

He is near 50% health with a -8 degen on him. I can cast Shatter Delusions instantly and I will have him at around 20% health, or wait for the degen (and my wand hits) for five seconds or so before I use SD to kill him. Why? Because the near instant cast of Shatter Delusions on Phantom Pain will always cause a Deep Wound, usually a 30% - 35% combo.

Shatter Delusions at L13 of Domination causes 67 damage (BTW my Fast Cast is 4 in this example, to complete the build, but I mix up the numbers). On a opponent who had 500 MAX health, it doesn't matter his current health, he will always lose 100 to Deep Wound. So 100 for Deep Wound plus 67 from Shatter Delusions is 167. He had 275 so he is now at 108 health, or a loss of 80% health like I stated in the first post here. And as indicated above, allowing five seconds of -8 degen and two wand casts before I do Shatter Delusions will scratch out this 108 early and drop the Warrior into his grave when you do cut the PP hex.

A goofy build to screw around with that can work if you always remember to yell at your Monks - "do NOT heal me!". It is actually hard to lose IoW once you have it, lol. For that reason, you can get more regular results (but less dedicated healing) if you substitute something like Plague Sending for IoW. You lose 10% everytime you release Conditions on you (45-50 health), and when you are at about 200 health or so from normal fighting and sacrifice skills (Enfeebling Blood, etc.), hit Blood Renewal and then Grenth's Balance.

Makes sense now?

Neo-LD · Aug 03, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

This whole argument about the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of this build is stupid. Of course there are counters to it, but its not as easy to shut down as Red Locust says. Its not as unbeatable as arredondo says either. It has the same characteristics of any frag build: high risk, huge reward.

I have monked vs this, let me tell you that while we usually manage to beat it, that Me/N was the most dangerous person on the other team, all match. We were scrambling all over teamspeak to figure out who he was targeting with fragility, and stuggling to remove it before PP/SD/Virulance (combined cast time of about 1.5 seconds) slaughtered. Played intelligently, and unpredicably, this thing is a monster.

The points about being weak on defnse and vulnerable to hex removal are valid, but this build does a dang good job at covering them up as best as a Me/N can. They are still weaknesses, but they arent exactly easy to exploit. Being weak to monk intervention is silly, any damage build in the game is. The fact that its damage coms in several small chunks at once makes it vulnerable to shielding hands, but impervious to protective spirit. (air eles have the opposite problem)

Id have to say that if I were forming a team, Id definately take one of these if one was available.

arredondo · Aug 03, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Please, point to where I said it was unbeatable. If anyone has claimed it had weaknesses (like ANY build) from the first post on, it was me. What you see in this thread mostly is a bunch of lame anti-strats that he posted to stop it - those do NOT work. Forum theory leads people the wrong way when incorrect, and if anything I am showing the public what NOT to do if they want to stop it coming at them.

If you don't have Hex Breaker (or something as good), you have to interrupt Phantom Pain for best results, or use something like Shame, or use energy drain, or use mass healing, or Signet of Humility, etc. Of course other things like NR at the right time and stuff works too, but that goes without saying.... bottom line is, if you are going to beat it, beat it right. If you use his suggestions to defend yourself, you die.

Your post shows what I learned by dying from it; I am targeting a MeNe before anyone. He is likely the most dangerous thing on the field. Once I know he's using other non-lethal combos, I switch to another target, but if he has Frag-Virul, I watch him and him alone if I want to protect myself and my teammates.

Tuon · Aug 04, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

this is a great build

Neo-LD · Aug 05, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Monked vs this again today. This time the mes was retarded- he didnt target anyone but me, even when he realized I had Hex Breaker. He kept leading with fraglity, even though it had gotten stopped dead by hex breaker 3 times already. He didnt even wise up enough to try and combo someone else, and no one else on my team had HB...

Goes to show ou how a good build can be totally screwed up by incompetence.

reality · Aug 05, 2005, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

It works; I've been using it for over a month. I have at least six builds based on this great combo. I posted the beginning of a new one in that all-Mesmer team debate thread yesterday:

I've combined it with Energy Surge and Energy Burn (with some other supporting stuff) to get an effective damage+energy zap build. Other stuff I use, all give you BIG damage in a short time period (variable damage depends on your attribute points and the degen time allowed):

1. Fragility-->Phantom Pain-->Shatter Delusions---> Virulence as indicated above (Virulence drops Poison folks!). Around 85%+ damage.

5. Blood Renewal (-33 health)--> Illusion of Weakness (-40% health)--> Grenth's Balance--->Phantom Pain--->Shatter Delusions. Does 80%+... a goofy build that requires you to swear at the Monks if they heal you.

In any of these you can add another skill to finish them off (Energy Burn, secondary attacks, etc.). I get so many 10 second kills it isn't even funny. Sure, all of this can be stopped, countered, etc. but so can other strong builds. The moral of the story is that before some old timer gets on his high horse and tells you what is and isn't possible for spiking Mesmers, just laugh to yourself, ignore him and move on.

Would it be possible to post a complete build for something like this? I just have an Ele/Mo right now, and I was going to make a Me/N (and eventually a W/R so I use all the professions) but really I have no idea where to start or what to aim for, even what armor works best for a Me. Any help is greatly appriciated. This was the most balanced attack I had seen and should be able to take a Monk away from healing anyone else long enough for teammates to take out the other Me/R/E while the monk is preoccupied with you (in 4v4). At least that was my thinking. Once again thanks for any help.

arredondo · Aug 05, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Here is the thread.

If you have further questions after reading it, post them there please and I'll be happy to answer them.

Ishamael Sedai · Aug 06, 2005, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

Ofcourse, with it not counting as a spell and with the ranger having access to various evasion stances, who can't counter NR?

Oh wait, we can diversion it! .......nope, he just used oath shot.

a good KD warrior should be able to keep a ranger from casting NR. now if they have multiple NR droppers obviously a KD warrior can't stop that. but with irresistable blow there isn't much of a way to keep the KD warrior from interrupting NR.

Phades · Aug 06, 2005, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishamael Sedai

a good KD warrior should be able to keep a ranger from casting NR. now if they have multiple NR droppers obviously a KD warrior can't stop that. but with irresistable blow there isn't much of a way to keep the KD warrior from interrupting NR.

Dolyak signet, even with 0 points in str its more than enough.

Ishamael Sedai · Aug 06, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

to be blunt arredondo, saying you have a top 5 or maybe top 3 arena build makes you sound stupid. arena games are random groups where people cannot build a smart team. they mean something, but not much. plus noobs play there quite often. as we speak i just watched a teammate walk across the lava. many builds are tough in random arenas for the simple fact that odds are you aren't going to meet the counter to it. honestly that doesn't impress me much. you can say all builds are counterable and yes that is true in a sense, but you can build a team in such a way that it minimizes the number of counters to your team.

Ishamael Sedai · Aug 06, 2005, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Dolyak signet, even with 0 points in str its more than enough.

excellent point phades.

arredondo · Aug 06, 2005, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishamael Sedai

to be blunt arredondo, saying you have a top 5 or maybe top 3 arena build makes you sound stupid. arena games are random groups where people cannot build a smart team. they mean something, but not much. plus noobs play there quite often. as we speak i just watched a teammate walk across the lava. many builds are tough in random arenas for the simple fact that odds are you aren't going to meet the counter to it. honestly that doesn't impress me much. you can say all builds are counterable and yes that is true in a sense, but you can build a team in such a way that it minimizes the number of counters to your team.

It's neither stupid or smart... it's a fact. You can be impressed or aloof, but it's still a fact. To take it to mean more than a great Arena build is the "stupid" part only coming from you. Just about any solo build presented can pretty much be assumed for Arenas because if one is describing ideas for tombs, they have to take in account the team build, not merely the solo build. The top Ranger build possible is near worthless in tombs if his other seven teammate builds don't complement it. There, you're building off of 64 skills, not just 8.

Here, I posted up an Arena build, so finding 8 skills that work well for that purpose is its own challenge. For arenas, it is what it is... one of the strongest builds available. You are right about noobs in arenas - and noobs also come to Tombs (with henchies) all the time. In the end, the only worth of a team or solo build in Tombs/Arenas is whether you can consistently get results and win. A single character's tomb build alone may not survive in Arenas. An arena build may not survive in tombs. They are two different game modes, with tombs obviously being the elite one of the two. Who cares? As long as people are having fun.

If you want to talk top tomb team builds, then share your genius in another thread as this is obviously not the one for you. If you have your own original Arena build that can beat solid players (once the noobs die in the lava pools of course), post it up. We'll see how easy it is to make one as you seem to claim.

You're right that resistance isn't as strong (weak teams exist in tombs as well), but team work in Arenas is weaker too (random arenas)... in tombs, you have your healing ball amigos or Spirit Spammers to keep you on your feet if you plan well. You certainly aren't surviving on your own as much as you have to in Arenas. In Arenas, you have less predictable support from the team, so it's time to replace some of those great combo offensive skills with defensive ones that you may not have to use in tombs because a buddy has it covered.

In the end, I agree tombs/GvG are the superior and deeper play modes. When two teams of eight are planning hardcore to defeat another skilled team of 8 and then executing the tactics on the battlefield, it's about the best computer competition there is (next to CS IMHO). In these modes, you do eventually have the chance to play the best players around and I really respect that. I plan to eventually dig in deep with creating team builds, the next step up.

Still, in the baby mode of Arenas that you seem to spit at in disgust, it certainly isn't easy to make significantly effective builds that can quickly kill as well as survive on their own, or everyone would have something impressive up. Army vs. Army is always the big show, but everyone (except you) loves watching Rambo ripping through the enemy almost all on his own.

Ishamael Sedai · Aug 06, 2005, 05:00 PM // 17:00

My point was that it is stupid to say a top 5 arena build. This is for two reasons. First almost any experienced player with a tested build (which I am honestly assuming of you) can go into random arena and win. I do it with my death necro. I do it with my zealots fire warrior. I do it with regular warriors. I do it with my prot mo. etc etc etc. There is a form of competition there and it isn't worthless, but when playing in random arenas often you are playing subpar competition. Furthermore this build is based upon the lack of hex removal you will see in random arenas because it is random. At least talk about the team arenas where teams have somewhat accounted for hex removals.

Yes saying everything is counterable is true. And yes if someone builds a build specifically to counter another build they will win. But not many teams will be built to counter only 1 type of team since they would lose. Teams are built to counter a variety of situations. I am impressed when a team beats another team that although isn't completely built to counter them, has some counters for them. Perhaps a smite team is facing a team using ward against harm & seed.

I remember playing football in high school and there was a saying about when you got in the endzone. It was act like you've been there before. You might be really good, and your build really good, but by saying "top 5 arena build" it sounds like you haven't been there before. Yes it is easy to make up a random arena build.

Kai Nui · Aug 07, 2005, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The issue is, phantom pain says that when it "ends" it inflicts its deep wound. If it "ends" prematurely via a removal spell, does it still count as 'ending', therefore triggering the deep wound anyways?

If so, then woa, Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions can inflict a deep wound and ~70 damage within the first ~2 seconds of the battle. Thats like, 150 total damage. In 2 seconds.

I know it only works on full HP enemies, and the combo has a lousy recharge, but still that is one heck of a way to storm out of the gate, persecuting the poor enemy monk. After this combo you can just play with the rest of your mesmer toys like backfire diversion and migraine. (all of which can also be comboed later with Shatter Delusions)

Did anyone read this message? Seriously, I don't think I've seen one answer to the initial question. Personally I think it means "when phantom pain ends naturally" not by being cut off. you could try it and see if they bleed though, that's what I'm going to do.

arredondo · Aug 07, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

You are still taking it the wrong way. I repeat, it not only is a top 5 build, it competes for top 3. Not because of me for posting about it or for some kind of cool elite reason, but it's a simple fact that I was pointing out. You bring up football... if your high school team were top 5 in the state, it is what it is. Celebrating in the end zone would be me bragging after decimating the team - which I don't. Work on your analogies because it falls flat here.

This ISN'T just some random Warrior build that you may use. I've tested so many builds, I've lost count. I win a lot, and I lose as well. But this is one of the few that really stands out. To suggest it is no more effective in Arenas than three dozen other builds is again, stupid on YOUR part.

Yes, arena opponent teams are filled with beginners, intermediates, and yes, even some great players believe it or not. But guess what... YOURS IS TOO. You have to rely on your own skills a lot more when you have a couple of n00bs on your team asking you what faction is for - you think it's easy to kill three of four virtually by yourself with any build? You act as if all one needs to do is throw skill tiles in a bag, shake 'em up and there's a winning build for you if you're good enough.

In the end, while winning with various builds is no big news, I noticed that my win percentage went up extra high with this build for the few weeks I played it before posting. The thing is, hex protection wasn't a big deal too many people as you point out... and that included me. I used stuff like IoW and kiting with smart play (aware of Mesmers and Necros around me) to get me by without having to carry one. Unless I stood around and let them multi-hex me, I didn't see the great need - no hex strategy was consistently killing me, and that's still true today outside of Frag-Virul.

Once Frag-Virul builds started going around more, this changed quite a bit as I said earlier. I was getting creamed by this setup faster than even Air Ele solo builds coming at me. I was forced to consider anti-hex ONLY because of this type of build. Not only that, if you haven't been in arenas lately, there are definitely more Hex Breakers out there. I know because it isn't as automatic of a free kill for me as before, which is a good thing because it shows that the community responds to trends on all levels.

THAT is why I give it all this credit - not as a point of bragging but to state a fact for those who want to use t, and advice for those that want to defend against it. It forced me to change my game a bit moreso than any other build I've faced. Other players seem to have adjusted too. You can defend ANY build in Arenas if you have the right tool, but as I argued before, I'm not interested in forum theory.

In the actual game, you can't defend every build, so it's not realistic to expect everyone to select a Mesmer or Monk secondary or primary to stop hexes (and even then, not all bring the right hex protection). Any type of remover besides Hex Breaker, as I pointed out above, I can deal with and punish with my tactics. So you can't just toss out 'hex protection' generically since even that alone won't stop this build if it's played properly.

The point of the matches in arenas is to kill the opponent side. Slam the strat all you want, but if there is no strong hex protection (or healing, or interruptions, Spell Breaker etc), the enemy is killed faster than almost any other setup. As a show of balance, I'm also decently protected from quick deaths myself by the defensive skills I carry. It's about as complete as you can get, and I still have room for the rez.

Any build can potentially get wins, but a few builds get them faster and more consistently than you want to admit. Any build can be stopped in Arenas, so pointing out that this one can be stopped as well isn't a shocking truth either. Of all the builds I've played and won with however, this is the one that gets the most results. Complain all you want, but the facts won't change.

Nightwish · Aug 07, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

I agree with arredondo. This Virul-Frag build is good but its getting annoyingly common :P Almost all Me/Nes i encounter use this build =/ I just hope this type of build is not going to be too stereotyped or pvp will become less interesting.

arredondo · Aug 07, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

Did anyone read this message? Seriously, I don't think I've seen one answer to the initial question. Personally I think it means "when phantom pain ends naturally" not by being cut off. you could try it and see if they bleed though, that's what I'm going to do.

I wrote about this a few days before somewhere and explained it there. I've been using it for over a month in other builds of mine (I posted them on the first page), and it was a natural fit with Frag+Virulence for all the damage they complement each other with. I'll explain again:

Phantom Pain causes 1,2, or 3 degen for 10 seconds. At any time, natural or not, when PP ends it creates a Deep Wound, which takes 20% off of anyone's current health and max health bar. For a 500 health opponent, it always does just about 100 damage for the Deep Wound alone.

And when I say no matter how PP is removed, I mean there's nothing at all to prevent a Deep Wound from appearing once you cast it on someone. All hex removers will create a DW. The beloved Nature's Renewal being planted will remove PP, but the Deep Wound will be inflicted. Simply running away will cause it to come after 10 seconds. You can't remove a condition that hasn't yet appeared, and in my combo, I always cast Virulence on it in about .7 seconds or so - no time to remove DW.

So yeah, 'cutting it off' with Shatter Delusions inthis setup is the perfect way to get the most out of it, as it always creates a DW. The damage from 1/4 second cast is simply amazing. Cast Fragility, Phantiom Pain, then at any time you Shatter Delusions:

Deep Wound = 100
Shatter Delusions = 67
Fragility triggered (unseen numbers) = 34

That's 201 damage from one spike. Then Virulence destruction comes down .7 seconds later. But yeah, some people think stuff like this is as simple as tossing an average Warrior build into the mix.